Pisses me off!!!

[Killer]

Bus won't stop here anymore

CLEARWATER - Unlike parents with more conventional work schedules, Elizabeth Salvador can't walk her three children to school.

She leaves her house at 5:30 a.m. for her job at a dry cleaner. Her husband, a plumber, leaves at 6:40 a.m.

So Veany, Azael and Karen - 10, 7 and 6, respectively - walk a short distance to Santa Rosa and Franklin streets where a bus picks them up at 7:20 a.m. and takes them to Skycrest Elementary School about 2 miles away.

But Pinellas school administrators recently told the Salvadors and their neighbors that next month they would eliminate three school bus stops serving 85 students in this small, largely Hispanic pocket northeast of Court Street and Missouri Avenue.

The reason: The bus stops are within 2 miles of the school. State law mandates bus transportation for students who live more than 2 miles away, but not closer. And now, school administrators say, recent improvements on Gulf-to-Bay Boulevard have made the walk safer.

For other parents, such news might mean simply rearranging schedules to accommodate driving the kids to school.

But the parents in this immigrant community say they face bigger challenges.

Some work early shifts at hotels, restaurants and construction sites. If they couldn't find help, their children - the oldest are fifth-graders - would have to walk to school alone.

"We have to go to work," said Salvador, 29. "We would have to find somebody to help us take care of the children."

Moreover, some parents are undocumented immigrants, which means they cannot get licenses and drive legally.

So these immigrant families, who typically might be more timid, have lobbied the school district to keep the buses.

School buses previously have provided transportation to Skycrest students in that neighborhood because traffic and construction on Gulf-to-Bay made the route hazardous, said Pinellas County schools spokeswoman Andrea Zahn. But since construction ceased on Gulf-to-Bay, where safety improvements include school crossings, the district decided to eliminate the bus stops.

At the Santa Rosa and Franklin bus stop one morning, a few mothers pointed out the particular circumstances the immigrant families face.

Even now, some of the children walk to the stop alone because their parents have gone to work long before the bus comes by at 7:20 a.m., they said.

"The majority of mothers work," said Erika Caudillo, 29, whose two sons go to Skycrest. "The fathers go earlier. The ones that work on the yards, the construction, they go to work first."

Then, for some, there's the bigger issue of drivers' licenses - a longstanding hurdle for Florida's undocumented immigrants who are not eligible to get them.

The other options, the parents said, would be walking the approximate 2 miles to school, which would be doable when it's not raining, or herding dozens of students onto public buses each morning.

After parents complained, transportation officials reviewed the distance between the school and the nearest entry point to the neighborhood, Zahn said. It was less than 2 miles, and state law says students must live more than 2 miles away to be eligible for transportation.

Officials also reviewed the route, which now includes two crossing guards provided by the city of Clearwater, and determined that it is safe.

As a courtesy, Zahn said, transportation officials decided to continue the bus runs into the neighborhood until the end of this school year, but parents must make arrangements by the start of the new school year next August.

Transportation officials will have a meeting with the parents on Dec. 12. Zahn said they will listen to their concerns, but also offer tips on how parents in other neighborhoods have handled lack of buses - such as parents taking turns walking groups of children.

One day last week, parents and children walked to school, pointing to what they say are the dangers.

"More than anything we worry about their safety," said Guadalupe Cortez, 33, who has one daughter at the school "There are going to be some children who walk all the way to school alone."

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/12/03/Northpinellas/Bus_won_t_stop_here_a.shtml

Hey, here is an idea...no license no drive, no free bus, no free school. They only thing you get free from my taxpayer dollars is a ride back to your home country!

[Adam_Schwartz]

"Hey, here is an idea...no license no drive, no free bus, no free school. They only thing you get free from my taxpayer dollars is a ride back to your home country!"

In a word, YES!

[Pull_T]

Really kind of mixing two seperate issues there. If you're gonna allow illegals to have their kids educated in public schools, then you need to provide for those childrens' safety as well. Can;t do one and not the other.

Plus the fact that the article read "some" of the parents are illegals...not all.

[Pull_T]

Plus...

Public Education exists because it benefits society as a whole. If a kid...let's call him Jose...gets a public school education, then society benefits due to his increased potential in life. Whether his parents are illegal/legal, pay taxes/don't pay taxes is irrelevant to whether society is benefitted.

[Killer]

This bus stop they are refeering to is about a quarter of a mile from my house. I would bet that there is not ONE Legal Alien in the crowd.

[Adam_Schwartz]

Plus...

Public Education exists because it benefits society as a whole. If a kid...let's call him Jose...gets a public school education, then society benefits due to his increased potential in life. Whether his parents are illegal/legal, pay taxes/don't pay taxes is irrelevant to whether society is benefitted.

But when you have an over-extended public school system in some states (esp border states such as TX), then it does become an issue. I am "lucky" enough to have several family members as teachers or counselors, so I get to hear the lunacy that takes place quite often. But we can save that for a separate thread.

[sakigt]

Plus...

Public Education exists because it benefits society as a whole. If a kid...let's call him Jose...gets a public school education, then society benefits due to his increased potential in life. Whether his parents are illegal/legal, pay taxes/don't pay taxes is irrelevant to whether society is benefitted.

But you could argue the reason we want illegals to work in this country is because of low wage jobs. If Jose grows up to be an accountant with that fancy teaching, America has a problem with that. If he picks oranges in FL for $8 an hour, he can stay, since we dont want that shit job anyways.

Since we cant control the home country's economy nor allow everyone US citizen status, there needs to be some middle ground that clarifies these kinds of issues. Especially the most important one, imo, healthcare.

[mambo#5]

OK, if they're illegal then let's charge them for education. Good students get a special discount.

[Pull_T]

If Jose grows up to be an accountant with that fancy teaching, America has a problem with that.

See, that makes no sense to me.

If Jose has more of an education, he is a more productive member of society...therefore society benefits. Whether Jose's parents are illegal has no bearing on that.

Now, when you get into a matter of whites wanting to keep the satus quo and worried that todays immigrant won't be a permanent underclass in the future...that's a whole other issue. If I wanted to keep Hispanics as a permanent underclass, I'd be very worried...mix a solid work ethic with a generation or two of education/opportunity and they'll do great in this country...much like the Euro immigrants of late 1800s.

Poly of course brings up the sticky issue...how do you finance the education of these kids? Luckily, since I am taking the Ivory Tower Liberal stance (that education is good), I can avoid such procedural details.

***but if pressed, I would tax the employers of these illegals and grant them some sort of quasi-citizenship....the revenue would be collected in the form of an excise tax on the employers. The illegals themselves would pay no direct tax, however, the excise tax is a defacto tax ont hem since it presumably comes from a pool of funds that an employer of illegals would otherwise allocate to their wages.

The revenue collected from here would go towards paying for the resources that the illegals utilize - education, health care, roads.

There would be a cost to the enforcement of these excise taxes as well as some degree of off the books workers. However, there would be many benefits under my system. These quasi-citizens would be able to obtain a driving permit (likely secured by a bond provided via the employer which serves as liability insurance, or forms a fund from which liability insurance is purchased from 3rd parties). They would also be able to avail themselves of other benefits that illegals currenty don't have legitimate access to: bank accounts, above the board loans, public libraries, group health care insurance/disability insurance, etc.

[sakigt]

As you can tell by my sarcasm, I believe Americans are lazy and scared of progress. Personally, rags from riches stories is a bit more inspiring than riches on credit stories I see in everyday life.

A productive member of society is someone who works as hard as they can, and gives back their appropriate percentage to uncle sam. There will always be people outside the bell curve who demand more or less, but Id like to think it works out in the end. I think theres a disparity in our tax system that causes a lot of angry feelings towards the government. Not only are illegals not paying taxes, so are under the table workers like waitresses. Why no issue there? :dunno:

[mikester]

But you could argue the reason we want illegals to work in this country is because of low wage jobs. If Jose grows up to be an accountant with that fancy teaching, America has a problem with that. If he picks oranges in FL for $8 an hour, he can stay, since we dont want that shit job anyways.

I think this is the biggest fallacy in this entire debate. :doh:

First of all, it's not that people don't want to do those jobs - it's that they don't want to do those jobs at the artifically low wages that have been driven down because of illegal immigration. These illegal workers have an unfair advantage - they don't pay taxes. And the employers don't pay payroll taxes, or provide benefits. So instead of it costing the employer $12/hour for the employee to make $8/hour after taxes, they skip the middle man. Unfortunately, it's the middle man that gets stuck with the bill for education, health care, etc.

This is what infuriates me about this issue. If Exxon/Mobile, or any other large corporation decided one day they were going to cut their costs in half by not paying payroll taxes and paying their employees 70% of their salary as cash under the table (so they wouldn't have to pay taxes either), and dropped all health coverage and relied on the public health care system to take care of their employees - people would be furious. And a lot of people would go to jail, from the CEO on down, for tax evasion. Except the janitor, he's illegal. :snipe:

[Killer]

I think this is the biggest fallacy in this entire debate. :doh:

First of all, it's not that people don't want to do those jobs - it's that they don't want to do those jobs at the artifically low wages that have been driven down because of illegal immigration. These illegal workers have an unfair advantage - they don't pay taxes. And the employers don't pay payroll taxes, or provide benefits. So instead of it costing the employer $12/hour for the employee to make $8/hour after taxes, they skip the middle man. Unfortunately, it's the middle man that gets stuck with the bill for education, health care, etc.

This is what infuriates me about this issue. If Exxon/Mobile, or any other large corporation decided one day they were going to cut their costs in half by not paying payroll taxes and paying their employees 70% of their salary as cash under the table (so they wouldn't have to pay taxes either), and dropped all health coverage and relied on the public health care system to take care of their employees - people would be furious. And a lot of people would go to jail, from the CEO on down, for tax evasion. Except the janitor, he's illegal. :snipe:


:werd: Exactomundo!

[sakigt]

I think this is the biggest fallacy in this entire debate. :doh:

First of all, it's not that people don't want to do those jobs - it's that they don't want to do those jobs at the artifically low wages that have been driven down because of illegal immigration. These illegal workers have an unfair advantage - they don't pay taxes. And the employers don't pay payroll taxes, or provide benefits. So instead of it costing the employer $12/hour for the employee to make $8/hour after taxes, they skip the middle man. Unfortunately, it's the middle man that gets stuck with the bill for education, health care, etc.

This is what infuriates me about this issue. If Exxon/Mobile, or any other large corporation decided one day they were going to cut their costs in half by not paying payroll taxes and paying their employees 70% of their salary as cash under the table (so they wouldn't have to pay taxes either), and dropped all health coverage and relied on the public health care system to take care of their employees - people would be furious. And a lot of people would go to jail, from the CEO on down, for tax evasion. Except the janitor, he's illegal. :snipe:

Ah yes. But heres the problem...

We live in a Walmart society. We want the best products at the cheapest possible price. This is evident that although everyone knows Walmart pays low salary, gives shitty benefits and low balls suppliers, it still accounts for 8% of total retail sales in the US. Thats nuts!

People like to complain about these kind of issues, yet dont want to pay out what is required to fix them. Hell, even Im one of these people, as Ive yet to completely free myself from shopping there.

Youve touched on an arguement that is much more far reaching than the issue of illegal immigration. Tack on 10% purchase price of your home and pay $5 for a package of oranges... then well talk. Even if a few people are willing, it needs to be a nationwide trend for it to hold any merit.

Look what it took to get people to start buying hybrids!

[Pull_T]

OK, you guys conviced me...the "bus em back to mexico" plan would work great.

[Euro-Man]

I'm a legal euro immigrant who pays taxes. :ken:

[mikester]

Ah yes. But heres the problem...

We live in a Walmart society. We want the best products at the cheapest possible price. This is evident that although everyone knows Walmart pays low salary, gives shitty benefits and low balls suppliers, it still accounts for 8% of total retail sales in the US. Thats nuts!

People like to complain about these kind of issues, yet dont want to pay out what is required to fix them. Hell, even Im one of these people, as Ive yet to completely free myself from shopping there.

Youve touched on an arguement that is much more far reaching than the issue of illegal immigration. Tack on 10% purchase price of your home and pay $5 for a package of oranges... then well talk. Even if a few people are willing, it needs to be a nationwide trend for it to hold any merit.

Look what it took to get people to start buying hybrids!

That's why I mow my own yard, even though I could pay a messican $20 to do it. Viva la revolucion!

[Throtex]

Ah yes. But heres the problem...

We live in a Walmart society. We want the best products at the cheapest possible price. This is evident that although everyone knows Walmart pays low salary, gives shitty benefits and low balls suppliers, it still accounts for 8% of total retail sales in the US. Thats nuts!

People like to complain about these kind of issues, yet dont want to pay out what is required to fix them. Hell, even Im one of these people, as Ive yet to completely free myself from shopping there.

Youve touched on an arguement that is much more far reaching than the issue of illegal immigration. Tack on 10% purchase price of your home and pay $5 for a package of oranges... then well talk. Even if a few people are willing, it needs to be a nationwide trend for it to hold any merit.

Look what it took to get people to start buying hybrids!

What's wrong with your ' key?

[sakigt]

What's wrong with your ' key?

Meh. Dont feel like doing it.

[mambo#5]

Ah yes. But heres the problem...

We live in a Walmart society. We want the best products at the cheapest possible price. This is evident that although everyone knows Walmart pays low salary, gives shitty benefits and low balls suppliers, it still accounts for 8% of total retail sales in the US. Thats nuts!

People like to complain about these kind of issues, yet dont want to pay out what is required to fix them. Hell, even Im one of these people, as Ive yet to completely free myself from shopping there.

Youve touched on an arguement that is much more far reaching than the issue of illegal immigration. Tack on 10% purchase price of your home and pay $5 for a package of oranges... then well talk. Even if a few people are willing, it needs to be a nationwide trend for it to hold any merit.

Look what it took to get people to start buying hybrids!

:werd:


did you copy one of my posts from the illegal immigration thread @ AZ? :sqnteek:

[sakigt]

:werd:


did you copy one of my posts from the illegal immigration thread @ AZ? :sqnteek:

I didnt step foot into R&P even before I was banned :mhihi:

But for serious, Im as hypocritical as it gets and I know it. But at least I admit it.

I did start coughing up 3x as much for cage free eggs though. :treehugger:

[mambo#5]

I didnt step foot into R&P even before I was banned :mhihi:

But for serious, Im as hypocritical as it gets and I know it. But at least I admit it.

I did start coughing up 3x as much for cage free eggs though. :treehugger:

see, that's the fallacy of this whole argument. On one side, people love to tally numbers of what illegals are costing us tax payers, but nobody really knows what they are contributing to the economy by working for low wages which translate into cheaper products. I am talking about the whole spectrum of products, from produce to houses and buildings. Now, if those illegals were paid as they "should" be paid or those jobs would be paid high enough to entice legals to work them, how much would the products of their labor cost? Now, joe blow instead of paying 150k for a 1500 sq. foot house pays 350k. And oranges are 15 dollars a bag. What would people say then? what would the cost be? I don't really know, but I cringed at the thought of what it would do to the economy since a lot of the US products would price themselves out of the international markets. China and India would run even more circles around us.

[Pull_T]

Illegals are basically the same thing as the cats in call centers...only they live here instead of Bangalore and Hyderabad.

[sakigt]

Illegals are basically the same thing as the cats in call centers...only they live here instead of Bangalore and Hyderabad.

:nod:

Its how we outsource things we seemingly cant.

[mambo#5]

Illegals are basically the same thing as the cats in call centers...only they live here instead of Bangalore and Hyderabad.

and don't forget that illegals spend their money here....

[Thunder Dump]

and don't forget that illegals spend their money here....

Yeah, on cock fights, Dos Equis and Goya. How does that help me?

[mambo#5]

Yeah, on cock fights, Dos Equis and Goya. How does that help me?

SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!SALES TAX!!